Today I spoke to New York City school chancellor Joel Klein about the “A-to-F” grading system he has applied to most of his almost 1,450 schools - a system Education Minister Julia Gillard wants to push to Australia.
NB: I have paraphrased my rambling answers. Mr Klein does not ramble and his answers are in full
Ms Gillard wants to scrap the actual “A-to-F” portion of the grading…
This is in some ways one of the more controversial points. I believe it has real power. It does reduce a lot of information to a single grade. By the same token, people could say it’s a little reductionistic, because looking at the data and the information can be very powerful. I would say that doing what the deputy PM wants, has proposed to do is terrific. Maybe it’s not only the first step but the last step. But to get the information – the basic information that ultimately we roll over into a grade … is what parents, teachers, others, the press, what they need to know about the schools. Because right now people are flying blind.
In Australia there is serious opposition towards any moves to increase the availability - or even the collection of - the kind of information you gather.
Sure, it’s kind of tradition. Once you start to make data about schools transparent – particularly about progress – that puts real pressure on … on all of us. I actually say, my life would be a lot easier, in a sense, if we didn’t put out the information. Because when we put it out the parents, legitimately, get concerned and make more demands on the system. But I think that’s the way you build a constituency and a consensus for change. I guess I also feel … I’m sure this is true in Australia as it is here, there are many children who grow up in poverty who have really enormous needs. And they don’t have a real sense of whether their school is making progress. So there’s a “feel good” quality about education, but when a student exits the public education or the private education system unprepared for the demands of the 21st century it’s a short-lived feel good quality.
In Australia…
I’m obviously not an expert on Australia, but I find in the US when you propose change a lot of resistance. And a lot of people resist, in particular, accountability.

Joel Klein, being aped by Stephen Colbert. From Gothamist.com
Parent groups have been vocally against your system being imported to Australia.
That would surprise me, because here in the US parents are overwhelmingly excited about the information. Not every parent. Some people don’t like testing – although I think if you don’t test students you don’t know what they know – maybe just again change is sometimes hard to get your head around, and it may be that when you have the information the pressure is to take action grows. People get concerned about that. I’m confident if you were to put the information out it would build the kind of support – and more importantly the schools would also look at their information. I remember when we first put out our letter grades, and I got calls from principals, they’d got a D or and F. The said “It wasn’t fair”. “It didn’t capture the richness of this or it didn’t capture that”. But every one of those conversations ended with the principal saying, “But I promise you this much chancellor, I won’t get the same grade next year.”
They sound like the students…
“Exactly. It’s exactly the same as a kid! “Well the teacher didn’t like me,” or “I was sick on the day of the exam. But I promise you this, I won’t get the same one next year”. But that’s how you build the kind of constituency. None of this surprises me that it might be controversial.
I think they are worried about the potential of the information to be used to stigmatise the students of a poorly-performing school.
In other words, we’re saying: this is a school that’s not doing well, even compared to peer schools with similar situated, challenging kids. And the fear is we’ll stigmatise them. But isn’t the real fear that they’re not educating our children, and we as a public, you in the press, should know about this and should begin to ask the tough questions? Why is it that in this group of 40 schools, that even though they start in a very similar place, some of them make two or three times the progress that others make – and some of them even go backwards. Sure that creates a stigma – but it’s the stigma of not succeeding in education, and we need to know about that. Not to punish people but to fix it. And that’s a big part of what I think the challenge in education is. But if nobody knows…
(We then discussed a famous Australian example, encapsulated by the headline “The School We Failed” and a picture of the students on the front of the Daily Telegraph)
Well put aside the picture of the kids, but the school … if the school is not preparing the kds shouldn’t we have a shout-out on that? Shouldn’t we ask why? Particularly when you know similar schools are doing well. It’s not about stigmatising the school, it’s really about preparing our children. If you’re a parent and the school is not making progress, and you say there’s very limited choices, well maybe one of the things you have to do is create choices. We’ve created choice here in New York, we now have almost 100 charter schools, which are public schools but they’re independent of the school system. Maybe you need to create those choices so you get the competition people need. Think about the implication of what you say: The school is not doing well. So we whisper about it so no-one knows and everyone goes along happily, except the kids who are getting hurt.
So that competition is good.
Of course! Of course! And that’s a good thing.
An unalloyed good?
Is that an unalloyed good? You bet it is. Think about it. You’re the parent of a kid. If you’re an affluent parent you have all the choices in the world. Here the kids whose families have all the opportunities, the kids who will have the financial support to do what they will, they have choices. Now why should kids who grow up in poverty not be given an opportunity to choose among different kinds of schools in the system so that the parent can get what’s right for the kid. That seems to me to be a good thing. And it also puts pressure (on). We’ve been watching the Olympics, right? People always run faster when there are more people in the race. Competition works! Competition has its abuses and I understand that. You don’t want people to give you faulty data, you don’t want people to cheat. But you do want people to succeed in education and I’m sure in Australia you want people to succeed, especially for your highest-needs kids because you want them to be productive adults. This information, coupled with information and opportunity, would be great.
What makes the difference to low performing schools: shame, or the public scrutiny as leverage?
There’s a degree of , if you will, public calling-out, which you call shame. That affects people, affects all people.. But more importantly than that, because of the way we cluster schools together there’s a powerful learning opportunities. That’s what happens. If I’m in a group of schools and you’re making real progress with a similar group of children, lets just say high-poverty minority kids. And you’re getting progress and I’m not. First thing I’m going to do is visit your school. Now, until I had these peer groups and these horizons, I didn’t even know about your school. Sure, somebody told me “he’s got a school” but there’s a lot of urban legend in public schooling. So I think it’s the power of the information to change. I wish you could do it, without a public dimension. But if you could do it, we wouldn’t be in the fix we’re in in public education.
(We discuss his history as a top lawyer nailing Microsoft on anti-competition laws and running a corporation. Klein is often spoken about as a candidate for mayor).
It’s the hardest and best job I’ve ever had. It’s not only so many people and so many voices, it’s about people’s children. People take their kids and their futures seriously. Because of Mayor Bloombery we’ve been very fortunate to be able to do some bold, exciting things. And because of that we’re doing some exciting things with education in this city. People always ask me, “what was harder, suing Microsoft or taking on the school system”. With all due respect to Microsoft this is much much harder, but it’s also much more rewarding. Because you change a world for kids. Some ten thousand more students are graduating in New York City each year than when I started. Now, those are real lives. There are far too many kids who aren’t graduating, but that’s a very exciting and rewarding way to spend your time.
What would you say to parents, anyone, who is against the introduction of this system to Australia?
Anyone who doesn’t want the information shouldn’t have to look at it. But I would dare say – one of the things we’ve learnt, particularly in democratic government – is that transperancy in information is empowering to the people. In the end, anything like this may take a little bit of time to get used to. The system won’t be perfect the first time you do it, but in the end I dare say as the parent of a daughter this is information I would certainly like to have.
Because of a slow train I was late to the interview. To see the principal. Terrible.